That Tech Pod
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That Tech Pod
How To Navigate Cybersecurity On A Global Scale With Jules Okafor
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Today on That Tech Pod, Laura and Gabi talk to Juliet Okafor, J.D.,the Chief Engagement Officer (CEO) for RevolutionCyber. Juliet is a cybersecurity professional who has combined her knowledge of the legal system and cybersecurity solution models into success stories across fortune 500 industries throughout the USA. Her ability to scope, plan and design the creation of an OT Cybersecurity Management System framework for one of the largest cruise lines in the world is testament of her commitment and leadership regardless of the challenge. Follow That Tech Pod: Twitter-@thattechpod LinkedIn: LinkedIn.com/thattechpod website: thattechpod.com
Hello and welcome to that tech pod where we discuss all things e-discovery, data privacy, cybersecurity, and tech innovations. I'm Laura Millstein. And I'm Gabby Schulte. Each week we're talking to heavy hitters in the industry to help us break down these topics. Today, Gabby, who are we talking to?
SPEAKER_01Today we're talking to Jules Okafor, CEO and founder of Revolution Cyber. Jules is a senior executive with proven business sales and legal experience, 15-year track record building sales operations, managing PL, growing small to mid-sized businesses, and building and leading executive teams. Jules, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_02Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.
SPEAKER_01So before we get into all things revolution cyber, can you just tell us a little bit about yourself, how you got into cybersecurity? Um, because every everybody who's kind of told us their journey, it's been an interesting one. So yeah, how did you get a kind of get into that?
SPEAKER_02Um, funny enough, I my first entry point into cybersecurity came through Craigslist. So I applied for a job.
SPEAKER_01Seems safe. No, I'm just kidding.
SPEAKER_02No, I every time I say it, I get a little nervous because I don't want anybody to do what I did. It worked out for me. I can't probably work out for others, but essentially, um, I start I found a sales role at an MSSP in Ashburn, Virginia. And I started my career by driving two hours every day, each way, to go to a sales job.
SPEAKER_01Oh my god. Yes. Wow.
SPEAKER_02So I sold I never sold security before, but I decided I needed a change, and that was my first opportunity.
SPEAKER_00How is the mileage though? Like, is your car okay? That sounds stressful.
SPEAKER_02That car didn't last, I think, any more than about a year after that. I actually had to sell it. It was yeah, it was bad. It was on um, I don't know if anyone's been in DC, but if you've driven uh 66, so uh essentially, yeah, but my car, my car didn't make the trip for too long.
SPEAKER_01Not surprised. Wow, that's oh my gosh. I'm just yeah, we should be more curious about the cyber aspect, but I'm very I have one more question about your commute. Um like, no, how so did that always take you two hours? In my mind, it's it's DC traffic, so it's like that's really like three hours each way.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, okay, it was supposed to really be an hour drive and because I lived, I drove from Bowie, Maryland to Ashburn, Virginia. It it was a really, really far distance. It was bad.
SPEAKER_00That's rough. I know you could have, as terrible as it is to say, you could have really used the pandemic that year.
SPEAKER_02I know. Okay. Don't even get me started, okay? I know it sounds selfish, but it would have been great to have a work from home policy then. It was so bad. They they required us to be in the office.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's right. Craziness. The one the one positive from from that this year. Um, so so moving on from you know your commute, which is a good story, but let's drive back to cyber for a second. So, one of the things we notice when we're talking to a lot of people in this is that there's millions of unfilled jobs in cyber right now, and your focus on training and mentoring in the field is something that's unique. Can you walk us through that process and how you think it might be helpful for those jobs and people trying to get into cyber that maybe they just don't even know how or or why or if they should?
SPEAKER_02Yes. So it um the pipeline for cybersecurity is a complex topic. And I think it gets even more complicated when you start to think about how many people are trying to get in using different avenues. There is no one way to get in. Um, even the way that I got in was interesting and unique. So the way that I tell people to do to get in is one, start with networking. Um, I have a number of people in my network who reach out all the time, asking me questions, um, asking to be mentored. But unfortunately, mentors don't have enough time with mentees to actually guide them through an entire process. So there are organizations like Isaka, ISC Squared. Um, there are organizations like um, uh, what's the new one? There's a new organization, uh, a number of them, even for women specifically. And those have processes for mentorship that allow you to meet with people who have the time to develop you and develop the career and help sponsor your entry into the into the uh the Infoset community. What I'll say is I've benefited from a long line of really strong male bosses who saw in me the potential, despite the fact that I didn't have the experience. So, what I've always done is been strong in sales and then leverage that in cybersecurity to then demonstrate how I could be good in something else. So it's all about I develop my transitional skill sets, communication, writing, report um uh presentations. Those things are very useful in this field and they're useful and things that you should be doing in other areas that you can then bring into the space and then make waves and into other areas of InfoSec, like pen testing or threat modeling and that sort of thing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, that's really interesting. And like um, we've heard, you know, we've talked to a couple of cyber people so far, and we heard that like it's so much more important, uh kind of like looking at a person's potential and like interest and sort of trajectory that you could see rather than having some sort of degree. I feel like that's so opposite right now of like what we're seeing in the job search market, where on so many uh job postings you'll see you need this degree, you need this 10 years experience, and uh blah blah blah. So, how how do you think it could you could kind of make it, you know, if people are looking for cybersecurity uh analysts or you know, entry-level cybersecurity jobs or whatever, how do you think they can kind of get that across and you know, because I feel like it'd be hard to sort of say, like, hey, you know, do you want to catch hackers or like like how do you do that? Like wait, I think you should do that actually.
SPEAKER_00Honestly, like I would probably look into that job if it's something like hackers, you want to really dive in to save some lives of those who were hacked. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So, you know, one of the things I say all the time is there I remember being a a kid and watching TV, and all of these ads started to crop up uh where the military was advertising for people who wanted to join the army or the Marines or the Navy. And we saw that on public TV. It was it was broadcasted everywhere. And when they were targeting women, the ad looked a certain way. And when they were targeting minorities, the ad looked a certain way. And when they were targeting young men from specific communities, the ad looked a certain way. I think the problem that the Infosat community has is that it hasn't tried to campaign and market in a succinct and uniform way to a number of people who are looking for the right opportunity. If I had been asked if I wanted to catch hackers, I would have been like, I'm not even sure what you're talking about because I avoided typing like the plague in high school. Like, I don't know who they are and I don't want to catch them. But if you told me, do you want to make more money? Do you want to contribute to society? Do you want to do work that is fulfilling and worthwhile, that might have gotten my attention. So I think the way we discuss cybersecurity needs to change. I also think that the easiest entry-level ways into the space are in the analyst role, but then also in the GRC policy writing, um, the parts of it that are that are don't require necessarily that you have years and years of security experience. I think we need to advertise those areas more than we do. And the hacking part is sexy, but just like when I wanted to be an attorney and I thought that I'd be Matlock in court all day long and just, you know, telling the jury the story, when I found out that only 5% of cases go to the jury, I was like, I don't really want to practice law. So the fact is that that part is sexy and it grabs attention, but I think we're missing the fact that what we do is really part law enforcement, part law, um, law practice, part uh policy, part um, you know, uh even some of the military aspects. It's all combined into one career. So we've got to find ways to advertise all the very interesting parts so people can find the places that are interesting to them and they can develop the the uh the experience and the background they need to get the jobs they need.
SPEAKER_00I liked that like cyber twist you just threw there. Like I was like, hire me. I'm ready to work for you, Jules. Let's conquer the world together. I love the more money aspect. But uh, but I agree. I do think the rhetoric behind cyber does need to be shifted. And I do think that cyber is something that's never going away, and it's something that should be seen as this is here, this is not going away, this is going to continue. Why would you not look at it as you want something secure, stable, profitable, and also like useful? Yeah, right here. So, so I like it. I'm signing up on your campaign. Um, I'm there, I'm there. Um, so just to throw a random question here. So every time we have somebody on for cyber, it's always, you know, okay, cyber, protect your data, you know, great. If you could sell us something that's just like a total twist on cyber, something we just didn't even know was cyber, or something that's just gonna just freak us out, or something that's just gonna make us feel like, oh, well, this is really like endearing. We didn't know anything, just something that's really gonna change our mind, where we're gonna be like, no one has ever come on and talked to us about that. What would it be? No pressure, by the way, no pressure.
SPEAKER_02There is so much pressure. Um, no kidding. Um, you know, I I don't know that I've had enough time to wow you, but I what what I liken cybersecurity to inside of an enterprise is to diplomacy. Um, a lot of the way in which cybersecurity is operating within organizations is that right now it's kind of the stepchild, unfortunately. And we and and I will have stepchildren, so please I'm sorry about that. But people aren't really bringing them into the fold inside an organization. And when I talk about diplomacy, if you think about what a diplomat does, they go forth first, they send out messages, sometimes propaganda, and they build relationships. Cybersecurity today has to act as a diplomat because people inside the organization typically don't understand it, they don't know why they need to do it. It's a pain, it slows everything down. But if you can make it so that people see it coming and they're like, oh, I've heard about these guys. I knew it was coming, I knew that it was something I needed to be prepared for, and we're prepared, I think cybersecurity wouldn't have such a bad rob. So I'm all about this idea of cyber diplomacy. I'm all about the idea of the CISO or even a BSO as the cybersecurity ambassador. And the idea is how does cybersecurity build relationships up and down the organization?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and that's that's such a good point, is is kind of because I I mean, after talking to a couple of people about cyber, like I would have never really thought about the diplomacy side. Um, so that's so interesting.
SPEAKER_02I I I that occurred to me. So I went to Israel for a cyber conference, and um um Benjamin Netanyahu talked a lot about um the fact that globally Israel isn't very well liked. And what he did is invest in cybersecurity, something that every country needed, and leverage cybersecurity to go out into different countries that they know don't even like them, with something that they know they want and need in order to build relationships. And when I started to think about what he was saying, when what he said is we don't have to be liked, we need to be respected. And if you think about cybersecurity in the same way, they don't need to be liked, but they need to be respected so people will do what they're asking them to do. And so when I made those correlations, it became included to me, our approach has been to really bully, uh, push, uh, threaten, scare. And it's gotta be to talk, communicate, um, you know, work with and collaborate with. And I think that will gain better results overall.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I'm making my sign for your campaign right now. It's like I am in.
SPEAKER_01Well, and and you know, talking about kind of cyber on a global scale, I wanted to ask kind of your take on some of the sort of bigger hacks that we've seen kind of reach the headlines. You know, there was the colonial pipeline, there was um a couple other ones.
SPEAKER_00The meet one was the meat one really, really hit sorry. J JBS, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01JBR one. It's and recently T Mobile, um, you know, uh uh millions of records of T-Mobile customers were were stolen, account names, social information. So um I wanted to kind of get your take on all of these kind of high-profile hacks that have been going on. Why do you think they're happening? Do you think it's that we're paying more attention and this has always happened, or it's kind of getting a little bit, you know, companies are getting uh penetrated more easily.
SPEAKER_00What do you think is going on here? And also just to jump on that, yeah, you said T-Mobile. I'm thinking Cox Communication was hacked. Notice the ones that are hacked. It's like everyone wants, you know, save the meat, you know? And like, but it is like the ones we're hearing about, especially. So I also am just to jump on Gabby's question, is there a reason specific ones? And I don't know why I'm air quoting, no one can see it, but I air quoted that. But specific ones are hacked.
SPEAKER_02Um so I'll start with Gabby's question first, and then I'll move to you, Slora. So um they're they're both happening at the same time. Cybersecurity is getting more notoriety and more attention. And at the same time, the the thrill and the actual um the money, the bounty to be made from hacking is increasing at the same time as well. So, with both of those things happening, activists have more motivation to hack. So they're hacking more than they would previously because now people can see it. Criminals no longer have to break into places physically. They can do it online, which is easier. They can leverage people, which were much easier. And so I think that the the threshold and the bar of entry is is radically decreased. Before it required military grade entry into military grade systems, right? Back in 50s, even like 90s, even those systems are really big, these really big computers and these physical locations, you had to do a number of things right in order to get into a system like that. Whereas now everyone has access to a phone, everyone has access to a computer. Um, and the the way in which technology is being created is so quick that a lot of the security is not being built in from the beginning. Actually, they're being bundled on. So it is, it only requires I say this all the time. Uh, I don't know if any of you watch the channel ID. Um what ID channel, yeah, it is scary. And I'll I'll watch that night to scare myself, but but literally, I figured out that honestly, if you're operating in a way where you don't know that someone's targeting you, but they are in fact targeting you so they know everything you're doing, they're likely to get you. What you want to hope for is no one's looking for you. Because if you think about the cybersecurity community now, CISOs have to do everything right. They're not sure who is coming after them, but hackers are targeting them, right? So they only have to get it right once. Whereas a CISO or an organization, an enterprise has to protect every single thing. And they don't even know what door the person's going to come in through or what person is going to walk them in. So it actually is a mathematical equation to actually figure out how to protect both governments, systems, servers, because the number of times you have anybody make a connection, that's the number of entry points attack and um attack service increase that you're put potentially increasing exponentially by. So it's a mathematical problem, cybersecurity, that we're trying to solve in very technological ways or very peep-oriented ways, but it isn't really strategically being done. And we're not taking into consideration the number of things that have to be right at the same time all the time, in order for us to really protect ourselves.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I'm gonna have nightmares. Like after you just said that, I was just like, I'm gonna wake up in the middle of the night and be like, cyber attack. Just really you scared me there.
SPEAKER_01Oh god. No, I I think you put it in such a good way, though, because like uh it's kind of like when you were so when you were talking about that, like I was a mat, I was imagining a physical house, yeah, but having like a bunch of doors because those are all the connection points. That's it. So it's it's just like they're coming to get you. Yeah, they're all coming together.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and you don't literally it it and and and so the the challenge is people okay. So when I talk to senior leaders in security, even senior executives, they understand the problem. The challenge is our security industry also incentivizes really, you know, unicorns and billion-dollar companies and sales of services. So you have to buy these things, but they're not made to solve all the problems. They're made to solve maybe one or two problems. And then you've got to figure out how to make them work together. It actually increases the risk that you'll be breached. So I can say, I am certain T-Mobile, knowing that it had been breached before it did what it thought it could to protect itself, but it had to get everything right. And that's the problem. So, in essence, it is a matter of when. It's not if it's when.
SPEAKER_00All right, so good for you, T Mobile. There was a compliment in there, I heard it. So that's nice. Uh I'm still like shaking off the previous stuff. Um, so speaking of problems, and it does seem like during this conversation, as I'm sitting here, you know, campaigning with you, you're sitting here addressing there are problems, but you're also saying here are obvious solutions, here's different ways to look at things, and I think that needs to be respected. And so I kind of want to bring that to uh a global thing. So if I were to ask you, like globally, what do you think the biggest challenges in cyber are just just as a global front and in general, you can I have no clue what these would be, and I'm I'm afraid of what you're gonna say. But with that being said, also what do you think are possible solutions to those?
SPEAKER_02Um so I don't know that I know the answer, and I don't think any one person does, but I can say that anytime in the world that our countries or organizations like the UN or these really large global organizations are faced with a problem that they can't fix. They put together committees, they put together bodies that are designed. Like, for instance, think about how quickly we got a vaccine. Whether you like vaccines or not, it was a global problem that we came up with a solution for. It required multiple people to sit in a room and really start to address how they could get the problem start um solved. So, and it was on multiple levels, right? We need the vaccine for people, we need to keep people away from each other, we need to put laws in place. It was at multiple levels. Cybersecurity requires there to be a body that is that is really focused on protecting globally all countries, all enterprises or organizations. And those people are innovators. They're not focused on today's problems, they're actually focused on tomorrow's problems, and they're designing today for the things we need to put in place, like policies, infrastructure, um uh connections for that to actually work. So I think we need to start being more forward-thinking, but thinking as a body of people, strategically looking forward and figuring out we can't solve today's problems, but let's just say let's look forward three years, five years. What do we want to have in place by then? So we allow ourselves to meet the moment when that time comes. That's my overall kind of approach.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, I love that. And that actually leads me to my next and final question for you, Jules is I I love to know like what are what's coming down the pipeline? What are some trends that we're looking out for between you know, five. To 10 years in cyber, and also you know, for revolution cyber, what what's coming up in the in the next couple of years?
SPEAKER_00She said the revolution cyber specifically because we're like jewels for global cyber hero of the of the year.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, yes.
SPEAKER_02Funny enough, I was having this conversation um with us so earlier. And um one of the things he said was, you know, funny enough, we need a revolution. What he's saying is we've got to, he anticipates that there will be a full-scale change in the way that cybersecurity is addressed within five years. It'll be focused, definitely more leaning, because people talk about um, you know, um AI and those sort of things, but really it will be requiring cybersecurity will require analytics and artificial intelligence in order for it to operate in the way that I've said we need for it to exponentially grow. That's one. Two, um, I I definitely see a reduction in people in cyber. I think we've we're heavily people oriented now. Um, there will be an influx of people with a diverse mindset, meaning from different areas of our economy or from different countries globally working together. But what I will also say is there will be a reduction in the number of people needed in order to do the work that is required for cybersecurity. Um, the third thing is I see a shift now from uh technology implementations to having technology companies bundling services in, so tying the two things together for delivery, um, so there won't be as many unicorn companies that don't have services also built in. There is also a um, I can see a lot of consolidation of companies. So, you know, companies like Noble 4 are buying lots of companies up, Microsoft is buying lots of companies up. The big guys are getting bigger, and that will continue as far as I can see. But I think also we will be moving more into a virtual world. If you start to think about where the tech billionaires, um, the the big data companies are investing, it's in a creating a whole new world, a whole new virtual world where we're all acting, living, and existing in that place. So I see a shift from what is our real world today to another world in which we operate in. And I think the protection of that world will be easier because I think already they're designing security into it, they're designing privacy into it. And this world in which we live in, of course, we'll still be protecting, but it won't be the fundamental things will be happening there. So I would look out for that. So a lot of VR, XR, AR, all sorts of things where it's an alternate reality than where we sit today. And cybersecurity will play a role there because I believe cybersecurity will be at the core, whereas now I feel like it's on the edges, and we're talking about cybersecurity, but not in a way if when I when you go to a place like Israel, physical security is day in, day out in Israel. Everything you do from the time you wake up to when you go to bed, you're very hyper-aware of your physical security. I think the world will move to hyper awareness of cybersecurity, the protection of your digital assets, who you are with regards to identity. Identity is a big thing. Um, and identity is required to be the focus on identity for that new virtual world. So identity will be the center of our conversations around reality, um who we are and what what where we are with regard to the our world today and the virtual world.
SPEAKER_00Well, Jules, that that was a lot to take in. I am excited and scared. It's a mix for me because I am partially like, oh no, the new world is coming, and I'm also like kind of putting on my cyber gear, like the new world is coming. So mixed feelings there. But um, this has been an educational, um, uh to say the least episode. So thank you so much for coming on and talking with us today. We really appreciate it. Thank you. I had a great time.
SPEAKER_01So Laura, we just talked to Jules O'Kaffour.
SPEAKER_00Uh, tell me what your tech takeaways are. I mean, she genuinely should run for some sort of like cyber policy politics. I I don't know what her role would be, but I'm voting for her for sure. I love the not only passion that she clearly has, but the knowledge behind it and the twist that she's really putting on cyber because she's brought to attention something different than what a lot of the people we've talked about, which is really bringing in the global aspect of it. It's not just about here are the obvious cyber attacks you've heard, hackers are bored, but it's really looking at it in a global reach. I mean, when she talked about Israel and what's happening there, when she was talking like Israel in that, I think it's the same thing with a lot of places outside the US where they genuinely have such a passion for their country that their first thing is how do we protect each other? And in changing that with the cyber aspect, when you're looking at hackers, the reason people are hacking is because they're not looking after your best interest. They're looking after what can I do? What can I get? What can I gain? And so if you have more protection around that and more of a cyber community that's saying, hey, we're all doing this, and it's more of a general awareness outside of just that cyber community, like you're not in a tech position right now, right? Minus this podcast. And so you're not necessarily thinking about your cyber community. But if it was so ingrained in you that it's like, yeah, we need this to protect each other in this, you would look at it a little differently. And I think that's kind of what she's presenting.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I really liked how she um, you know, was saying how we have to be kind of like forward thinking in the you know, tackling problems in cyber and um and especially the part about kind of getting on everything's gonna be you know virtual, digital, which is what we're already seeing. And when she was talking about that, I couldn't help but think of like Second Life, you know, that game where it's like you're basically it's like your life, but it's just online, and it's just like you know, obviously that's a game right now, but when you think about it, who carries cash? Who care I mean I know people still carry like credit cards and debit cards and stuff like that, but that's all on your phone, it's all available kind of digitally, um, and we're seeing more and more of that, uh, you know, with currency going digital and all of that type of stuff. So I think that's so interesting, and just to kind of think of like that forward-thinking aspect of it, um, she just spoke so well about that.
SPEAKER_00She she really did. And it was like before at one point when we were talking, how she was saying about how her kids play roadblocks, you know, I look at my nieces and nephew are all on it, it's the same thing. It's the whole virtual world. I think, you know, a decade or so ago, it was the Sims or something that people play. Yes. Yeah, and you were like, Oh, look at this. But it was like, you know, you'd get on maybe once a week and be like, What's the sim Let me have my Sim like do the dishes?
SPEAKER_01Like, yeah, and you're like, ha ha ha ha ha, and it's like just wash the real dishes.
SPEAKER_00But uh it's like it's really not that.
SPEAKER_01It's like my sim will be like working out, but like I'll just be playing the Sims.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and that's the scary part, is I think it was back then just oh the Sims, and now it's roadblocks and Second Life and all these things that almost are real. You have those headsets you put on where it's like, oh, I'm in Paris, and so I don't have to go to Paris. I can just put this headset on and link it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, honestly, though, but like and especially when we're talking, and then this is you know maybe venturing onto like sci-fi, but maybe not. But when we're thinking about like, you know, pandemics, you know, all of a lot of the scientists are like, yeah, there's probably gonna be more, you know, very dangerous viruses going on. And with everything becoming more and more digital, are we just gonna say like no, there's a huge risk at like having human-to-human contact. So like let's just live like completely virtual. Like, when are we gonna get there? But I feel like like it might be a question of when instead of if.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, I think you're right on that. I think it is more when, but uh, but you don't know because you look at so much has happened in the past like 14 years from we didn't even have the internet to now we have the internet, and yet, and yet you look back at like classic cartoons like the Jetsons, where are the flying cars? You look at, you know, uh back in the future, where are the hoverboards?
SPEAKER_01Like, why have I think um wasn't Mark Zuckerberg uh on a uh like a water hoverboard during the 4th of July and he was like carrying the flag?
SPEAKER_00Did you see that? Yeah, but it's not the same. Sorry, but at this point We were promised hoverboards internet, and where is my hoverboard?
SPEAKER_01Also, Laura, I have a question for you that's gonna blow your mind. Um blow it. Are are we living are we living in a computer simulation right now?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, this is actually a hologram version of Laura. Sh the real Laura is not here.
SPEAKER_01Um, but like have you ever heard of the like the treatment, but virtual but virtual and like but like we're the Sims, basically.
SPEAKER_00If that's the case, then I just um I just want to like say awesome job to whoever created me. To whoever created that so well, like great.
SPEAKER_01Like it's really honestly, like, honestly, like you know, kudos. I can't I have nothing else to say. Like, yeah, not even mad about it, like just kudos.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So with that said, if you also believe that you are in a virtual cyber world with us, then you should probably be listening to more of our podcasts. So check us out at www.thattechpod.com. Check us out on our LinkedIn, it's LinkedIn slash that tech pod. Um, our Twitter exists. Uh and you can also send us an email if you want to be on our show, if you know someone that wants to be on our show, or if you just want to tell us that you actually have created the hoverboard and share it with us at contact. Tell it to us. Yeah, send it to us, please. Contact at thattechpod.com.
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