That Tech Pod
Welcome to That Tech Pod, a podcast co-hosted by Laura Milstein, Gabi Schulte and Kevin Albert. Each Tuesday, That Tech Pod will feature in depth discussions about data privacy, cybersecurity, eDiscovery, and tech innovations with heavy hitters in the industry. Subscribe so you don't miss an episode! Visit thattechpod.com for more information.
That Tech Pod
The World Needs Joy! Why Tech Training Matters in the Legal Field with Joy Murao
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Today Kevin and Laura talk speak with Joy Murao. We talk about the importance of training, big law vs. boutique law firms, the idea of going to law school in 2023, H1B visa's, Kim Kardashian, Chat GPT and much more!
Joy Murao is a legal technology pioneer with a career spanning over 25 years in Big Law and Corporate Legal Departments. Now as Founder and CEO of Practice Aligned Resources (PAR), Joy brings innovation and education to the broader legal arena to include government agencies, small to mid-size law firms and service provider organizations.
Throughout her career, Joy has made significant contributions to the legal field. She played a pivotal role in developing and overseeing the Practice Support Departments at prestigious law firms such as Latham & Watkins and Paul Hastings. With her expertise, she has hired and managed over 200 direct reports, supported firm-wide practices areas including litigation cases, global M&A projects and employment class actions, while also shouldering the responsibility of training and educating lawyers and paralegals within these firms.
Joy's influence extends beyond her own ventures, as she actively contributes to various professional organizations. Currently, she serves as a Section Executive Committee Chair for the California Lawyers Association, specifically in the Law Practice Management & Technology section. Additionally, she holds a position on the Global Advisory Board for the Association of Certified Ediscovery Specialists (ACEDS).
Recognized for her dedication to fostering a strong legal community, Joy has actively collaborated with Women in eDiscovery, ILTA, the Relativity Users' Group Advisory Board for Los Angeles and various paralegal organizations. Through her involvement in these organizations, she has helped bring professionals together and facilitate the exchange of knowledge and best practices.
Joy's educational background includes a BA in English from UC Santa Barbara and a Paralegal Certificate from the University of San Diego. She has utilized her expertise to create and teach legal technology courses at the Paralegal Training Program of UCLA Extension. Moreover, Joy leads engaging discussions on legal technology through podcasts and webinars, providing valuable insights to the legal community.
With her extensive experience, leadership, and commitment to the advancement of legal technology, Joy Murao has made a profound impact on the legal profession and continues to drive innovation in the field.
Hello and welcome to that tech pod where we discuss all things e-discovery, cybersecurity, data privacy, and tech innovations. I'm Laura Milstein, and I know a little bit about technology.
SPEAKER_01And I'm Kevin Albert, and I feel like I know a little bit about technology as well.
SPEAKER_00But we don't know enough, and that's why each week we're bringing on heavy hitters in the industry to help us break down these topics. And today, Kevin, who are we talking to?
SPEAKER_01Today we're talking to Joy Moraleau. Joy is a legal technology pioneer with over 25 years in big law and corporate legal departments. As the founder and CEO of Practice Online Resources, Joy brings innovation and education to the broader legal arena to include government agencies, small and mid-sized law firms, and service providers. Throughout her career, Joy has made significant contributions to the legal field. She played a pivotal role in developing and overseeing practice support departments at law firms such as Latham and Watkins and Paul Hopkins, and she hired and managed over 200 director boards supporting the firm practice areas while shouldering the responsibility of training and educating lawyers and biologals within these firms. Joy also serves as the Section Executive Committee Chair for the California Lawyers Association and sits on the Global Advisory Board for the Association of Certified E-Discovery Specialists. Joy, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_00Good morning. Thank you for having me. Joy, this is a true honor to have you on the show. You have been in the uh tech space for as long as I've been in the tech space. I've definitely seen you around. I've I've heard about you. I've known a lot of the things that are going on. And I think uh originally actually I was at I was working at Reveal back in the day, and I remember when I got onboarded, we did a training with with your company. So I can't escape you. So I figured might as well bring you on the plot, might as well share you with the world. So really honored to be here. Yeah, we're really excited. So just to get crazy and just to dive right into today's episode, which side note, I say that too often, you guys. I'm constantly like dive in. I'm like, no one is swimming. Um but just to get to the nitty-gritty of everything that we're talking about. Can you just tell us how did you get to this point? How did you become joy tech extravaganza? Tell us, tell us all.
SPEAKER_02Well, I think the beginning obviously is going to paralegal school and wanting to be a lawyer, right? The concept of going to paralegal school as a primer to seeing if you like the legal environment. And just from my background, I was computers and technology was definitely something I did in undergrad. So when people saw your resume of paralegal plus technology, and this is and lower to date myself, 1994. I think that maybe you're gonna tell me that's when you were born. But okay, so I get that all the time. But I got here because there was this bridge that needed to be kind of traversed between IT and legal, right? And they were turning to paralegals or turning to support staff, saying, you know, we really need someone to hold the hand of the attorneys. And so it started as early as 1994, giving here, here's a manual that was 300 pages called in magic, read it, condense it to 12 pages, and then go around the country and train all the Melvanie at the time, was where I was at, O'Melvin Myers uh lawyers on this database technology. And so to this day, I feel like it's the same thing I've been doing, but obviously different products through the years, but there's still this gap. And I'm just happy to be brave enough to learn all this new technology. And that's what I tell people. You just have to be curious and just be tech confident, don't be intimidated by technology. If you can just show up, you got this. So that's kind of how I'm still here.
SPEAKER_01So part of this though is that you're teaching a lot of different things and a lot of different subjects. Is there a reason that you recommend that people go to a company like yours as opposed to, you know, like going directly to the companies? Like, you know, why wouldn't somebody go to reveal and have reveal train on them or go to relativity directly, for example? Is it just that there's too much technology out there?
SPEAKER_02Well, I think the key to me is the blend of the legal and the technology, right? The concept that understanding what the lawyers and who we're delivering to, that there is a why to the what and the how. And so I can learn a product. I can learn how to do a specific task within one tool. And I'll be honest, a database is a database in my mind. So whether you do reveal relativity or disco or whatever, the concept of what we're trying to output and deliver should be the same. But why you do it and how you consult when you use the product, that's important to me. And I think that's why you would go to someplace like myself, like my company now, because we are strategically focusing on a comprehensive learning program and a career development track, um, or go to a law firm. I think that a law firm and a vendor service provider, those are great opportunities because you're dealing with those attorneys and the legal and the support staff of paralegals one-on-one, day-to-day. So you're hearing what they need. And if you're, again, if you went down that track of going to paralegal school, coming out, working on cases, you're going to encounter technology at every turn, whether it's conflicts and onboarding new cases to billing and timesheets, those are all technology based now, e-billing, all the way to MA, due diligence, virtual data rooms, employment law, class action, you know, kind of damage assessments. I love it because at every turn, there's an opportunity for a paralegal or an attorney or a support staff to show their value to the client. When you talk about billable rates and you're talking about hundreds and thousands of dollars per hour, I hope that we're displaying to clients that we are holding them tight and saying we're trying to leverage technology as much as we can and we're giving you the value. That's why the prices are getting a little high.
SPEAKER_00I love what you're saying. It's it's sort of a one-stop shop to educating your employees. And I don't think people do that enough. I mean, you come onto a company, even when I was onboarded onto reveal and you you all came in and taught that. That's one component to a company. And so I think it's important to recognize, you know, you you buy a house, you say, okay, it's a it needs to be remodeled. I don't just say, all right, just the kitchen. And then, you know, it's like, that's it. And it's like, well, who cares about the bedroom? That's someone else will deal with that. It's like, well, I don't know.
SPEAKER_02Or the foundation.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Is broken.
SPEAKER_00You're like, what a beautiful house. And then the roof collapses in and the windows leak, and then your bills are crazy, and you're like, I don't understand. It's so pretty. And I and so I do think it is an undervalued. Uh honestly, it it's I think it's something that people say as that's a nice to have, when in reality it should be a need to have. So yeah.
SPEAKER_02When you think about it now with attorneys, like, what is it? You have to know it, learn it, or hire for it, right? So I specifically for e-discovery, I find that that's it, right? They they either know it because they were great, where they were very technically advanced to really embrace that, or they had federal cases back in 2006 that forced them to start using it, right? Or they've had to learn through time, or they're really, you know, conscientious about e-discovery learning, or they're hiring their paralegals or their lit support or their vendors to help them. But either way, they have to participate in this practice. They it's not like you can just close your eyes and pretend and tap, you know, click your heels that technology does not exist. There is no evidence on that phone, there is no evidence on that computer, right? That's not happening.
SPEAKER_00It's not there, it's not there. I didn't send that email. Uh you're that's not my signature. Prove it. I mean, it's you. No, it's not me. Before you came on, Kevin and I were actually talking about how things are changing so much. And I know that your company, although you've done global trainings, primarily you're located in the US. And so one of the things that Kevin was sharing, and and Kevin, I'm gonna let you speak to it because I there's there's a lot, but it it brings the question. So I'll just ask you the question and then Kevin, you dive into more details for everyone because I'm our listeners are probably like, what's she trying to say? But it's more of how things are changing now. You're looking at bringing talent from different countries, you're looking at downsizing a lot, you're looking at new softwares like ServiceNow. Why not hire ServiceNow? So, my ultimate question to you is how does this impact you personally? How is this impacting you and your company? And for everyone else wondering, how does what impact the company? This is where I'm going to pass it to Kevin to kind of break down some of the trends and things that are happening.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, Laura and I were talking, yeah, obviously, when we both went to Ireland, we went on critical skills visas. And you know, one of the big pieces that is interesting to me is now the US has really restricted the H1B visa. They don't really let everybody go quickly anymore. And one of the things that I saw was that Canada had basically opened up their borders and basically said for anybody who's waiting on a US H1B visa, you can just come right in. And they basically had 10,000 slots and they were filled within 48 hours. And I was like, oh my God, are we basically about to deal with a big sort of brain drain where people are basically floating to other countries because of some of the things that are happening here? Are you worried about you know some of that? Because a lot of those people you know become paralegals, a lot of those people you know have the ability to kind of overlap with a legal firm. Are you worried about that piece of it? Like basically that we're gonna lose a whole bunch of talent.
SPEAKER_02Not at all.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_02Um, because I believe if you look at the country today, there's a lot of amazing people in uh markets that we really were not looking to for suppliers, like to supply. For example, Idaho, right? Amazing group of lawyers and great paralegals out there and a lot of legal secretaries and resources, because there are a bunch of people who support attorneys who are not who did not get a certificate, for example, in the paralegal studies, but they're still serving in that role. Or there are lawyers who basically had a change in quality of life or had families and maybe are not are no longer in that track that are working as contract attorneys or temp attorneys right now. So I think that if you look at America, I think we're not short of those resources. And I don't think those are the resources that are always the ones that are leaving. I see those tech positions of the ones that are leaving. But when I look at my what I do every day, technology is definitely a component. But you no longer have to be an electrical engineer or computer science person to sit in my seat, right? I was not one. I was an English major in 1994, right? Coming out. Like I said before, you just have to not be intimidated by technology. You have to be open to being able to bridge that gap of the legal, understand what legal needs, and then be able to say, okay, well, what technology is out there right now? Let me be again that curiosity, let me see what's out there, let me let me talk to people and see what they're using. Let me call this one service provider and try them and then get a feel for what other products they may have or suggest. So I don't think that the resources that we currently have in America are even being uh tapped as much as they can be. And that's why to me, moving our program online, looking for people who have that work ethic, who are who are looking for the opportunities. I mean, I have had and been blessed with an amazing financial side of my career because of the supply and demand issue, right? There is still no tech school that's gonna generate a litigation support person out of the gate, right? It's still not there. But when I look at the attorneys that need to be serviced, you need different people with different personalities, different temperament, temperaments, different abilities. Some practice areas are per purely transactional. So they need tech in a different way than maybe litigation or criminal. To be honest, I mean, criminal is very similar in what we do to litigation, but that's a whole nother area we haven't even been talking to yet. Are defense attorneys and plaintiffs or the the government agencies and how to better enable them to be tech savvy, right? They're doing raids and collecting computers and who's reading all this? They're are they still printing it out and using a photocopier to baits number things? I've seen it, so I know it's happening. So I think that there's a lot of opportunity for jobs. And then now with the great resignation and the concept of the remote workforce, I do see so um many job openings, but no one to fill them. So I'm hoping that we can help again supplement training, qualify people, and really help them understand where they fit because not everyone can work in a trial law firm. That's pretty intense in regards to ours. So we need to make sure that we're being realistic about your personality and your needs and fit it with the right firm.
SPEAKER_00You really took my question of how does this impact you? And you said, uh, it doesn't. It doesn't at all try a new question. So I need to I need to get myself together.
SPEAKER_02Well, no, I think it's it's uh one thing to be said about that is I never look, I I how can I say this? I always tell people, don't tell me what you can't do, tell me what we can do, right? So I'm not worried about the jobs that are leaving, I'm looking at the jobs that are here. So I I do tell people I have rose-colored glasses, and maybe that's what my they say, oh, you're just so optimistic. And I'm like, Well, I guess so, because you know what? My name's Joy. What am I gonna do?
SPEAKER_00Like, you know, that'd be funnier if you weren't, though. You were like, I'm just always so upset.
SPEAKER_01I'm going for me, what's interesting in this industry is how things have changed, right? When I started in the industry, it was a whole bunch of like law enforcement folks, right? And you know, the legal industry didn't really have you know this kind of a skill set in there. There weren't really tech people in. And now, you know, there are places that teach this, you know, right out of school. There are certainly programs you can do, but for the most part, there still is a lot of people who are just learning on the job. You know, it's a lot of tinkerswim type of thing. And I think that's interesting, but at the same time, it's you know, it's kind of a terrible way to really do this because you want people to have like a baseline set of skills, and you can't assume that everybody has that. Are you seeing you know, kind of that same thing where there's sort of that big gap between folks either in big law, you know, versus small law or like in you know, New York versus in Idaho, as you mentioned?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, I would say first of all, we're really lucky to have organizations like Women in E Discovery, ACEDS, EDRM, right? That kind of cover the United States, if not the globe. I mean, they're really having chapters all over. So we're really lucky that there's at least organizations that are putting a little spotlight on our industry. It's not still not there in regards to like no little kid says, I'm gonna I want to be a lit support person. No, I don't I've not heard that yet, unless it's a daughter or son of someone in the business.
SPEAKER_01Honestly, even then.
SPEAKER_02I was gonna say, actually, you know what? My my my friends' kids say, I don't want to be what you guys are because we work a lot. But no, but that being said, um, I think that the key is the collective comprehensive learning and tailoring it to a job, not saying I want this unicorn that can do everything. And if I had a dollar for every time it says, I'm looking for a unicorn, I'm like, they don't exist. So I don't know how we're gonna supply this to you. How about a stallion, a mare, and a pole, right? Like maybe we can kind of stratify the kind of work that's out there. And, you know, if you want to keep your employees happy, we're happy to jump in and and and roll up our sleeves and and pick up the trash one day and then go speak to CEOs the next day. But if you're gonna make that my regular job and I'm doing 20 hours a day trying to keep up, you're gonna lose and burn out staff, which I do feel we've done. I don't think the size of the firm is what's gonna determine, like, oh, every big law lawyer knows how this works. No, and I've been there and I'll say it's still a challenge to have consistent, sustainable learning for all lawyers in the firm because everyone's busy. It's not a billable task. Those are things that are being monitored and bonused on and expectations. So I it's hard to really squeeze in comprehensive learning in a five-hour a year uh allocation to CLE or any kind of requirement, right? So I think more it's about the person's school that they probably went to. Like certain schools, like I said, do have probably 10 law schools that I think have addressed some of the technology issues. A lot of the paralegal schools have, they have some kind of legal tech. But my point is it's not like the core curriculum that they teach at an ABA law school, right? There's certain things at every law school, like those books behind me, they're not mine. They were donated because I still do want to go to law school. But whenever I do this, people look at those books and they're like, oh, those, that's you know, whatever. They recognize the books because that is a core curriculum, you know, core subject across all law schools. There isn't that for the technology aspect of legal. They don't come in saying, Oh, I understand that legal hold tool that looks familiar, the process, or conflicts checking. What is that? I'm like, Are you kidding me? Okay, you know, or even going to trial. And they're saying, Oh, that's like the stuff on TV. I'm like, yeah, like the stuff on TV. You know, they just it's it's kind of interesting. But but Nita has done a great job. Um, Shannon Bales, I think you might know Shannon, uh, wrote a book and a trial companion. So I think we're getting there because uh Shannon and I worked together years ago. And I think it's beautiful when our people are finally making inroads into structured learning, but it's still a challenge. It's it's not going to be there for everybody. So I think that's where you're getting the inconsistency. It's not the firms, but more so of how they were trained or the law schools they were going into. In California, you don't even have to go to law school. You can be apprenticed. I mean, Kim Kardashian, I think, went that route down that route.
SPEAKER_00I thought, oh, that's that's what I was thinking when you said that. I was just like, yeah, Kim Kay.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, let's go talk to Kim because her heart her father actually was one of the early users of Live Note for the transcript technology and the trial use of that video and transcript synchronization for trial. So to me, I think until we get someone like that who could spotlight it and you know, put us on TV and make a law and order litigation support unit. Um I don't think it's Joy.
SPEAKER_00What do you what do you think is happening right now? This is this is the moment. It's right now.
SPEAKER_02This is call me, call me. This is right. No, but because I did think that, you know, when you talk about leveling the playing field, I do believe there's a lot of lawyers who are intimidated by the technology still to this day. And so the lawyers who can embrace it or at least understand it enough to use it at that high level, just explain it and leverage it, let let us do the work. But you you know, I'm the mechanic, you drive the car. Okay. You you go you drive it around and then you tell us what you need and we'll get it fixed. But you know, until that happens, you're gonna have just a really imbalanced equation in this in the litigation and even due diligence for MA deals. It's all about corporate records and it's all evaluating whether there's risk in buying this company. There's a lot of risk detail in the electronic data we have on all these servers and storage.
SPEAKER_00So I think you're spot on. I mean, it's it's one of those things that you you don't go to school for. And you think about a lawyer, you're going to university, you're then going to law school, you're getting all of this just reading, so much reading. And you finally you get into the firm and you're ready to go. And then they say, Oh, you know how to use this e-discovery platform. What? I didn't go to school to learn e-discovery. People that sell e-discovery, people that build e-discovery platforms did not go to school for e-discovery. It did, it doesn't exist. So you have to question, well, how do I use this? Why would I want to spend all of this time to become a lawyer to then learn a new trade? I don't want to do that. And that's that is an under understatement to an extreme. I I don't think it is very often that you meet a lawyer that says, oh yeah, I'd love to just, you know, how do let's let's actually go behind the scenes. How do how did we build the processing engine? I'm really, I'd like to start there. It just doesn't happen. So I think it is your spot on where you're you're going to these law firms and you're saying, focus on what you know, focus on the law. As a tech person, I don't want to focus on the law. If all of a sudden you came to me and you said, Laura, I know your expertise is e-discovery and cybersecurity, but you need to also be able to go to trial and defend the case of whatever. I would say the investigation part, I can, you know, we can put the documents through this. I can help you with that, but I'll go on trial, but we won't win. I will I will put an argument out there. Something is gonna get us in trouble, and it's me right off the bat.
SPEAKER_02I always think you are spot on. Yeah, no, I always like to look at it like comparing healthcare to legal, right? Or being a subject matter expert or specialist, right? But I know that my general practitioner is not running the MRI machine. And please, God, don't let them be running the MRI machine, right? So, and I also know the MRI technique. Mission is different than the doctor who is going to read the MRI uh scans after, right? Like just like resource-wise, there's no way that a doctor is going to be one doctor is going to run all 16 different things. Like, are they going to also pull your blood? Like, no, I go to the lab and they, those phlebonomists pull my blood. But why do we expect one lawyer to be able to do everything? Like all of a sudden, like this lawyer who's, you know, talking to the client and thinking of the strategy and trying to understand which way we're going to go, they're the ones who are also supposed to go and file the document by midnight through PACER, uh, through ECF, if you know, ECFX. No, um, that's not going to be that person. So I do think it's interesting how in legal, we just haven't really dissected the components that make a good legal team work.
SPEAKER_00So agreed. Completely agreed.
SPEAKER_01A lot of consolidation in firms. There's a lot of firms that are sort of either you know going away or what have you. Do you have a positive outlook on the the way the industry is going right now? Do you feel like this is a good time for people to be going to law school, going to paralegal school?
SPEAKER_02I still want to go to law school, Kevin. So I'd say let's not, let's we won't dye that out too quick.
SPEAKER_01But crazy talk by the way. Why would you want to go to law school?
SPEAKER_02I don't even want to die. I just like to learn. I just let no, but I do enjoy what they do. Um, I don't want to become a mechanic though, but so so one thing when I when I talk about it, when I look at I I explain things to people like corporations and government agents, like who are our clients, right? So, first of all, the clients themselves have legal departments. So I do see some movement or migration from law firms into corporate legal departments, whether it's the paralegals and attorneys, or it's the legal operations, or it's again the legal technologists who are helping bridge the gap between the law department and the IT group of that corporation, right? And especially when you think about global corporations, then you have bigger data privacy and compliance issues. So you can only imagine that there is a whole ecosystem for the next generation of law, law, loyal, law, legal or law firm people to go to. Therefore, who's stepping up to fill the roles of the law firms? Because outside counsel are are always, I feel, gonna be around because you're always gonna have an issue of scale. You're gonna have an issue of local representation. You know, we need local counsel in different areas. You're not gonna be able to do all that. And then again, when you look at corporations, global corporations, IP, right? How many different practice areas do they have? Tax, real estate, finance, right? So I don't think that lawyers are going anyway anytime soon, with or without Chat GPT or generative AI. Everyone's so scared of it. But I think again, that's another tool. But that I think when you look at strategy and everything that is a part of practicing and supporting, uh, whether it's regulatory or it's more litigation and transactional, or if it's litigation, you're gonna need people. I do see when we look at someone's budget, and I again I equate it to shopping, for example. Like I buy certain things at Whole Foods, I buy some things at Costco, I buy certain things at Trader Joe's, and every now and then I'll go to 99 cent store, right? Because there's some things I'm like, whatever, doesn't matter. This is fine. I think that's the same in regards to how clients should be looking at their projects, their legal projects. When do you need legal Zoom? And when do you actually need a full-fledged lawyer looking at your specific things, right? When do you need a form versus when do you need consulting? Right. So I don't know. I I do think that while I see consolidation, I do think that there's a power in coming together because clients are complex. You might be going in there for immigration and then you might end up having a family law situation too, that you have to service that client. So whether you're formally coming together or if you're collaborating through your bar associations and finding like they have we have a solo small firm section for the California Lawyers Association, I think it's a great networking opportunity for them to say, Oh, I have a new case. Oh, you do bills and states and trusts. Well, I need that too. And so that's a form of consolidation, but it's not a formal partnership and all that. But I think the concept is clients are complex, no matter how small or big they get, you're gonna need to have multiple or different kinds of subject matter expertise, whether it's an attorney expertise or if it's a technical expertise, we always need subject matter experts. So the job's not going away.
SPEAKER_00The whole time I just kept thinking uh if you were to relate this to dating, my interpretation is why not date many people? You know, this partner gives me this, this partner gives me this. Why would I limit my options? And I don't need to give everything to one person. I can be like, you know what, you get this, you get this. I mean, it sounds great. I I like that sister. Let's go. Let's let's work on it out.
SPEAKER_02Um but we're in the town. No, but I agree, like I think it's about friends, right? Like you have certain friends who love going out to the theater, maybe you have different friends that love walking and hiking, and that's those aren't my friends. But you know, you might want a different set of friends that love the music, you know. I mean, or or you have a foodie group of friends, I do uh like people who like different things. So I do see that. I agree. And again, the the concept is own what you do, like I think for an individual, is figure out what you love doing. I think there's room. If you can figure it out and hone in on that, it's not work, right? It's just an extension of who you are, and you do it because you love it, you do it because naturally tend you have those natural tendencies to be able to be organized or to be a speaker, to be a trainer, whatever it is, that if you can just figure out what you love doing and what you're good at, lean into it, there is room for you in this industry. And I think that when you try to put a broad stroke of take this technology course, it doesn't tease out that specialness, that specialty from you, right? Because you're all just gonna learn how to run a production, you're all gonna learn how to process data. Well, what if I'm really good at teaching people how to process the data? Or what if I'm really good at collecting the data? We have, you know, like there are just so many facets to what we do. And I think what I love about what I do every day is I'm not confined to one thing. And I think when I first started coming, when I came out to start my business, people are like, you know, you need to focus. I'm like, I am, I am focused. What are you talking about? This is what I've been doing for 20 years. This is litigation support, this is practice support. I hire, I train, we work on cases, we educate, we market, I gotta go to trial, I gotta go talk to the CIO of some company because they didn't do the collection right or whatever, or they want to do a self-collection. I am focused. I'm focused on what I do, and that just you know, and it's just interesting because people, if you haven't lived it, if you haven't done what we do every day to support attorneys, they think that we're all out there. And I'm like, no, it's just a very intricate workflow, it's just a big workflow, you know.
SPEAKER_01I couldn't agree more. Yeah, for me, it's I'm amazed how many like true lifers there are in this industry. Like there are people who just live and breathe it and are just in it forever. And so for me, I think it's just a great, it's great to see the positive. I mean, to a certain degree, like you. I mean, yeah, to a certain degree. Like, I you know, again, I don't know what else I would do. And so I'm I'm always psyched when I go to the conferences and I see people that I just have known for 20 years, you know, 25 years. Like it's amazing to me. And so for me, I love that aspect of it. I love the community side. And one of the things that I really like about what you've really done is just bring a lot of those people together. And so it's not just like the same sort of handful of folks who do some of the conferences and all you're really like finding some of those diamonds in the rough, some of those folks who wouldn't necessarily get those chances to kind of get out there. And so for me, I think that's that's a piece of it that I really think is awesome.
SPEAKER_02Thank you. And I think thing too is paying it forward. I know someone at several companies found me. I never knew that this job existed. I thought I was gonna go to Paris and go to law school. But someone said and looked at the resume, no, no, no, you belong here. No, no, I belong over here. No, you belong over here, and then later on, oh, you should be manager. No, I'm kind. No, you should be manager, right? It's all you know, it's it's someone believed in me and saw things. And I only hope that I could take that time and do that for others because it is a time investment. It is something to look at someone and say, let me dedicate 20 hours to you and just work with you and figure this out. But I know that we can change lives and we talk about, like, you know, how do you leave a legacy? I don't know if people know, but I I've had cancer twice in my life. And so, you know, you realize early that life is short, and if I was to not be here, could I leave and sleep, you know, rest well, knowing that what I've planted is growing in full bloom in other, you know, I mean, like it's it's it's moving forward and moving on. And I do think it takes a special person for us to be sitting in a seat for be lifers, because it is, it does take putzpah, right? It takes dedication, it takes resiliency, it takes like, you know, being able to let, you know, it's stressful. Some people yell at you all the time, but you know, like you just have to let it roll because you're like, you know, they're having a bad day. You know, hopefully I'm not the one that added to that. But I don't think I did. I'm just gonna keep on trucking, I'm gonna be calm. I think that we have that personality to to be like the duck. Someone told me, like a duck, just to be smooth and across, but down underneath we're like our feet are just padding away. That's a special person. And I'm happy to be there and to help cultivate the next generation of people like that. There are some people that are in our industry that maybe have one or two things that stress them out. I mean, I am sad that some people I feel have PTSD in our industry. I think that there is that is something to talk about, is like mental wellness and um stress management. Maybe they weren't meant to be to do this forever, but it's a great career, so you know they are because it is a financial situation thing. But hopefully we can help them if we can be better about training resources that can come in and take these specialty things off their plate so they can have the ability to focus in and hone in on what what's their sweet spot. I think the the stress comes from making us do everything and you just can't please everybody. And so hopefully, with a kind of people innovation concept or moving forward with being more open to working with people, whether you wanted to do four hours workday, you're that doesn't mean you're not valuable to me because you can only work four hours because you have a family or whatever. I'll take the four hours, let's do it, because then I can match it with another four-hour person. And now we have a whole day, like job sharing concepts. It's something we talked about a long time ago and everyone laughed. Job sharing. And I'm like, well, it's a team approach. What's wrong with a team approach? You know, now with COVID, I think this has been more realistic now that the working from home, the concept that you don't have to be sitting next to me for me to believe that you're working. I think it's taught us managers how to be better at managing remote staff and not relying on you clock in and clock out, and you you were here for eight hours, therefore you did eight hours of productive work.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I don't I don't think we're there anymore. There are a few that I do feel bad. I think that the culture is not gonna allow them to be fully remote. Um I think that cultures, our our company cultures are definitely important to the equation. But that being said, I think that's why you have the great resignation coming in or being here is because people are realizing, you know, this culture doesn't fit me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. You know, Joy, I was following everything until you got to the point of saying, you know, and there are some people that they can only work four hours because they have families. That's where you lost me. You cannot have a family, get out of here. We need eight hour days. And by eight hours, I mean 12. Step up. Who works four hours? Like, I don't think I could do that if I tried. Like to me of PTSD, that's what I just got from that. I was like, oh, I'm scared. Like, all I would be thinking is I'm replaceable. Four hours, I will replace you if you're working four hours and I'm like, I'll add that to my schedule, not a problem. Have fun with your family. You made your choices. Um, but everything you said is is really accurate. And you're you're a very inspiring person, just to put that out there. I think what you do, your company is necessary, it's useful, it's helpful, it's an undervalued skill set that people need to be aware of. They need to be tuning into these things, they need to be stepping up, especially in the new remote world, but also in the fact that a lot of companies are going back into the office and having that face-to-face value, mentioning that you had cancer twice. I mean, you know what that says to me? It says the world really wants joy. Oh, thank you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, and again, I think things happen for a reason. And you know, gosh, whenever I think about resiliency, I never think of myself. I did, but when you look at a story, I'm like, wow, that's a lot, that's a lot of stuff out there. But it just drives me even more, right? It means that, like you said, I'm here for a reason, and that just means I gotta just shine the light as much as I can until you can't. And then it's all right. Someone said, like, oh gosh, you're burning the candle at both ends. You really should. Some people always give me this advice. You should really take it easy. You should be burning the candle at both ends. And I'm like, look, when I go, it's all wick. That's what I want on my stone. All wick. Yeah, don't let them say that to you, Joy. Yeah, no underutilized candle here. You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_00You gotta burn it and and burn it to the ground and then haunt them.
SPEAKER_01That's awesome. I think on that note, this is probably a good place to break. But this has been great, Joy. Thank you for coming on the pod today. I really appreciate the time.
SPEAKER_02Thank you.
SPEAKER_01Laura, we just talked to Joy Moraleau from Practice Align Resources. What were your tech takeaways?
SPEAKER_00Joy is incredible. I understand that I say that at least 10 out of 10 times that we have someone on the show, but I think Joy was absolutely delightful. I think she is one of those people that has been in the industry for so long for such a positive reason. I always go back and forth. I know, Kevin, that you love the people that have been there, that every conference you're like, oh, it's Timmy again. I hate Timmy. I'm like, Timmy, go away, get a new career path. Why are you still stagnant? I do think in the industries of tech, whether it's e-discovery or cyber, you get the same people over and over that don't make changes. They don't, they talk about tech innovation, but they don't make their own adaptions to the technology. Joy is not one of those people. Joy is the other percentage of the people you see all the time that you are genuinely excited to see because she is constantly fighting to learn more, to do more. And I think she shows that. I think what she brings to the tech world is not only positive and inspirational, but helpful. As much as I like to say you're a great person, I also am very much of, but how does it benefit me? And not in a selfish way, but in a real way. You can be the sweetest person ever. But if a storm is coming and you're just standing out in the rain, enjoy it, have fun. I'm going inside. It's insane. I don't want to have to be like, Susie, come on in. Do you need an umbrella? No, I need a person in my life that says, I brought an umbrella for myself and a poncho for you. That's that is helpful and nice. And that's the combination that I think joy really offers. I think when it comes to training, as mentioned in the episode, we we lack it. We're behind. There is no e-discovery in college. These courses don't exist. And she was spot on when she mentioned about people not having job openings. That's a real thing where you don't have enough people to fill these jobs. Or where you have all these people, but they're not getting these jobs because they don't have all of the training or they haven't had that work experience. And those two combinations leave sort of an open field. And what I what I mean by that is the union effect. I went and I learned cyber, but no one is hiring me because I haven't proven that I can do it with work. But if I can't get hired to do that, then how can I prove that I can do it? And at the same factor, you don't have enough people that know eDiscovery because there has been no training, there has been no schooling. So how do you hire the right people to do that? And I think everything she says about it and she told us today with the industry spot on. I could keep going. But um, Kevin, I guess I should leave room for your opinion as well. What'd you think, Kev?
SPEAKER_01Well, thank you. I agree uh on a lot of that. I mean, for me, I I think you know, Joy is one of my favorite people in the industry. I've known her forever. You know, I really I I like her also just the mission of the company and what she's really doing. And I think the idea of it is really good because you're right, it definitely is a skill set that people don't really have. There's certainly mindsets that you can try to find. Like I would try to find service-oriented people, help desk people, like food service people. But like again, you find a really good food service person, they're not going to have this legal skill, and you want them to come in and be able to do their job. And so using a resource like Joyce is really critical. And so I definitely agree with all that. I am shocked that she really wants to go to law school. I can give you a million reasons why you should not go to law school right now. And I can certainly crush your spirit. And so it's certainly exciting to see somebody who has that same joy and so enthusiasm and wants to keep learning. And I think it's a good thing. I'm really glad we had her on.
SPEAKER_00You know what they say, Kevin. Don't be Kevin, be Joy.
SPEAKER_01I hear that a lot, actually, for sure.
SPEAKER_00I heard all the time. I'm like, oh, it's a rough day. Think about what would Joy do. I think it's that's the bracelet, WWJD. What would Joy do? I mean, it's been around for a very long time. You know that bracelet. If you are interested in finding out more about Joy, That Tech Pod or anything that you can do to be on our show, talk to us about people that have been on our show or learn more about us, or just say hey, you should reach out to us at contact at thattechpod.com if you want, which I highly recommend you do. So we go over to our website, www.thattechpod.com. Enter your email to subscribe so you don't miss anything going on, check back past episodes, just live on the site. It's just gonna be so much time for you just to listen over and over to all the episodes. I think we almost have 200 now, so you're gonna be busy, and then I'm here for it. So check that out. If you have social media, you should head over to LinkedIn.com slash that tech pod. And anywhere else that you have social media, we might be there. It's I'm not sure.
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SPEAKER_00Thanks everyone.
SPEAKER_01See ya.